Talk:Glacier Bay Basin

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I am new to this, and was unable to find a way to "discuss" without going to the "edit" page.

 I quote below from the existing page on Glacier Bay.

Doing the math, isn't a 65 mile retreat in 200 years (.325 miles per year) actually greater than the "up to a quarter of a mile per year" that is being attributed to "current local climate conditions due to global warming"? It would appear a "recent" or "current" global warming bias has been introduced into this page, when maybe a better phrasing would be that "the glacial retreat is continuing at a rate of up to a quarter mile per year", without ascribing any new blame for the retreat.

Skeptical01 (talk) 23:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Date?

a large single glacier of solid ice till early 18th century Since the bay wasn't recorded by European til 1740s, isn't "the early 19th century" intended?--Wetman (talk) 16:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Russians saw the area first in 1749 and later Captain Vancouver saw the glacier in 1790 (pl see history section) it was still one mass of ice. However, it was named Galcier Bay in the 19th century.-- N.V.V. Char ^Talk . 08:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Glacier Bay/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 23:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• pro-forma concerns: Glacier Bay links to 14 different disambiguation pages (fix links):

Bats, Black bear, Blackfish, Calving, Chinook, Chum, Dolly Varden, Gustavus, Hawk Owl, La Perouse, Martin, Ptarmigan, Sandy Cove, Whitefish

• Sorry about this. My fault. All disambiguation issues have been addressed now.

• The scope of this article is unclear. I would suggest merging the article Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve because they have overlapping scope. Both discuss the history, and the latter article is not just limited to the National Park aspect. This article covers far more than just a body of water. I suppose it could be called, "Glacier Bay Basin" or "Glacier Bay Drainage Area."

• After I visited the Glacier Bay and several other glaciers in this area, during a cruise ship trip in July this year, I decided to write articles on a few related subjects. I was stunned by the scenic beauty of the Glacier Bay and its astounding glaciers so different from the Himalayan Glaciers. I wish I was much younger to see them in closer range on a smaller boat by spending a few more days in the bay. Following the visit, I wrote six articles namely, the Salmon Creek Dam, Margerie Glacier, Chilkoot River, Chilkoot Lake, Deer Rock and finally the Glacier Bay. When I started writing, I read all other articles already posted (though I missed some important ones which you have now pointed out) in Wikipedia namely, the Glacier Bay (without any references), Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve (without any references ) though a UNESCO site combined with Kluane-Wrangell-St. Elias-Glacier Bay-Tatshenshini-Alsek), Wilderness area and many individual glacier articles. Since the Glacier Bay covers only 27 % of the total preserve, I thought of expanding the Glacier Bay article initially, as it would be manageable in scope and length. As you have now suggested, changing the name to “Glacier Bay Basin” would be appropriate as Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve could be left to be expanded later as an UNESCO article (I have incorporated most of the text in this article already into this article). In keeping with your suggestions, I have incorporated some more details of the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve in the lead section to be covered under the revised title “Glacier Bay Basin.” The proposed text is:

• “Glacier Bay Basin in south-eastern Alaska, United States, encompasses the Glacier Bay and surrounding mountains and glaciers, which was first proclaimed a U.S. National Monument on February 25, 1925 and which was later, on Dec. 2, 1980, enlarged and designated as the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve under the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, covering an area of 3,283,000 acres (1,329,000 ha). In 1986 [or 1992??? ], UNESCO declared an area of 57,000 acres (23,000 ha) within the park a World Biosphere Reserve. This is the largest UNESCO protected biosphere in the world. In 1992, UNESCO included this area as a part of a World Heritage site, extending over an area of 24,300,000-acre (98,000 km2) which also included the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park, Kluane National Park (Canada) and Tatshenshini-Alsek Park (Canada). Part of the National Park is also designated as a Wilderness area covering 2,658,000 acres (1,076,000 ha). Most of the park is also designated wilderness area which covers 4,164 mi² (10,784 km²) of the park.” I am unclear as to the difference in meaning between the last two sentences. Is the US wilderness designation co-extensive with the UNESCO designation? This may be too much detail for the lead paragraphs and you may want to just mention the UNESCO designations in one sentence with the details and land areas covered by the designations in a separate section. Please see my edits to your proposed text.

• “Glacier Bay, covering an area 1,375 square miles (3,560 km2) of glaciers, which accounts for 27% of the Park area, was a large single glacier of solid ice till early 18th century. It started retreating and evolved over the centuries into the largest protected water area park in the world. Glacier Bay, on the Gulf of Alaska, was known as the Grand Pacific Glacier about 4,000 feet (1,200 m) thick and about 20 miles (32 km) in width which has since then, over the last more than 200 years retreated by 65 miles (105 km) to the head of the bay at Tarr Inlet, and in this process exposedleft separate 20 other glaciers in its trail. In 1890, the name “Glacier Bay” as such was given to the bay by Captain Lester A. Beardslee of the U.S. Navy, in 1880.”

• Are you proposing to move the whole article to "Glacier Bay Basin" or just to add a new section heading to a portion of the lead?
• The first sentence is confusing. Is it the body of water or the glaciers that cover the 1,375 square miles? You can say "Glacier Bay, the body of water, covers an area 1,375 square miles (3,560 km2) and accounts for 27% of the Park area," or "Glacier Bay together with its associated glaciers covers an area 1,375 square miles (3,560 km2) and accounts for 27% of the Park area," depending on your facts.
• I would add "was first proclaimed a U.S. National Monument on February 25, 1925 by President Calvin Coolidge" unless you feel that you have it covered below.

• Should you cover mountain ranges other than the Fairweather Range in the area?

• I thought it would be too much of a coverage since there are two articles on Fairweather Range and Mt Fairweather. I have incorporated some brief details of these two in this article duly incorporating your suggestions mentioned later here.

• The Geography section should explain the international border and how it passes through the area. Explain that the border was set by an international commission based on the furtest point visible from the sea. Since the glacer blocked access to the bay, it affected set the border at that time, 1903, not withstanding further changes in the bay. See Alaska boundary dispute (Alternatively, this could go into the History section.) If the scope of this article is the entire basin, explain to what extent there is park protection for the adjacent area in Canada.

• Yes. I have extracted from the linked article and now added with references. I hope it is OK. I also propose to add an img (map showing boundary at different stages) from the linked article Alaska boundary dispute

• I would remove the paragraph break between "in 1867." and "However, a boundary..." I would consider replaceing the paragraph with:

In 1764, Captain Vancouver reported that his exploration of this part of the coast was blocked by a wall of 2 miles (3.2 km) width and 1,200 metres (3,900 ft)) thick. Vancouver claimed the land for Britain in conflict with an earlier Russian claim, which was resolved by the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1825. The United States purchased Alaska from the Russians in 1867 with a claim under that treaty of owning all lands up to "the summit of the mountains situated parallel to the coast". The United States and Canada agreed that an arbitration board would draw the exact boundary. The arbitration award given in 1903 resolved the Alaska boundary dispute by drawing a line that linked the mountain peaks in this area. Because the agreement froze the exact boundary in 1903, further retreat of the glacier does not alter the boundary as the coast extends northward.

• To what extent has the region experienced Isostatic rebound with the retreat of the glacier?

• I had not covered this aspect. Now I propose to add the following text.

• “Post Little Ice Age Rebound in the Glacier Bay Region has been studied by researchers of the Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Alaska in association with National Park and Preserve Service, under a National Science Foundation Grant using (GPS) geodesy combined with studies of raised shorelines and tide gages. The studies have established that the fastest rates of glacier rebound in the world are now taking place in the Glacier Bay region. The studies have also reported that “these adjustments to LIA loading and unloading are producing significant stresses on the earth’s crust which can affect seismicity and regional tectonics. The rising land also is continually changing the geomorphic texture of shoreline throughout the Park and causing changes in hydrologic patterns, erosion, and sedimentation. All these changes have a direct impact on the ecosystems of the Park. [1]." Shall I include it as subsection of Geography or post it as an independent section.

• I would add it to geography, but the decision is yours.
• Missing " to end quotation.
• No parenthesis around GPS, which could be wikilinked.
• pipe to "Post Little Ice Age rebound in the Glacier Bay Basin" - be consistent in using either Basin or Region throughout the article.

Concerns are described below by article section:

Lead Paragraph

• change "According to the statistics reported up to 2009, the number of visitors to the Glacier Bay was 444,653 with 422,919 accounting for cruise ship passengers." to "According to National Park Service statistics for calendar year 2009, 444,653 people visited Glacier Bay, with 422,919 of those being cruise ship passengers."

• Done

• Please double check whether those statistics were for the year 2008 or the year 2009.

History

• include the Harriman Alaska Expedition in the history section.

• Yes done now.

• change "Basically, history of the Glacier Bay has been reported to cover a minimum of four glacial periods ending..." to "Geologists believe that Glacier Bay existed during a minimum of four glacial periods ending..."

• Done

• change "In 1794, Glacier Bay was a wall of ice when Captain Vancouver during his exploration of this coast was blocked in his explorations by a wall of 2 miles (3.2 km) width and 4,000 feet (1,200 m) thick." to "In 1764, Captain Vancouver reported that his exploration of this part of the coast was blocked by a wall of 2 miles (3.2 km) width and 4,000 feet (1,200 m) thick."

• Done

• "88 years later," - when starting a sentence, please spell out the number.

• Done

• "retreated by 44 miles" - the reader may not be clear what "retreat" means - perhaps say "retreated from the sea by 44 miles"

• Done

• "During his research he had witnessed the glaciers in action and noted that the ice had retreated almost all the way up. " - reword. Are you talking about Muir's observation of glaciers in other areas?

• Yes. It was Muir's observation. Reworded now.

• "Muir found a land form in its original natural state in an unformed format.[8] " Not clear what this sentence means and whether ref 8 properly supports it.

• Propose deleting this sentence as c am unable to coin suitable sentence to reflect that the land form emerged in a virgin form.

• How about "Muir studied the land exposed by the retreating Glacier as it demonstrated the process of reintroducing plants and animals to an area."

• "This is the fastest documented glacial retreat ever. " needs citation

• Yes, cited now with this reference[2]

• change "they have been witness and sufferers of the retreating phenomenon of the Bay." to "their oral traditions indicate being displaced by the last advance of the glacier." current wording is POV and is also unclear.

• Done

Geography

• "Glacier Bay is delimited by the Gulf of Alaska to the west" - is this true? Aren't there hills and mountains between Glacier Bay and the Gulf of Alaska? Perhaps you are describing the park boundary instead.

Yes, I meant the park. I have now altered the text.

• change "When it was brought under protection, declaring it as a national monument under a presidential decree, " to " When President Calvin Coolidge declared it to be a national monument, "

• Done

• Use active voice. Change "Its status as a National Park and Reserve was established under the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act of 1980" to "The Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act of 1980 changed its status to a National Park and Reserve." or "Congress changed its status to a National Park and Reserve in the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act of 1980"

• Done

• I would delete, "For Kayakers, McBride Glacier is stated to be a good place to see. However, the entrance to this bay is better avoided as it is hazardous." Wikipedia is not a tour guide book or travel advisory.

• Done

Archeological findings

• I would delete, "The potential for finding more such sites are stated to be high.[8]" - Either attribute this view to another source, or leave it out. It is speculation.

• Deleted.

Ethnographic aspects

I think you are missing the big picture. There is oral history to suggest that the Tlingit Indians lived in the valley. They were pushed out and migrated south when the glacier advanced. They moved back to the area when the Glacier retreated in the 1880s. They claim their fishing-dependent lifestyle was helped during the National Monument years, which kept out commerical fishing. After the area became a National Park, their fishing and hunting activities were curtailed except for certain religious exemptions. The complex society did not evolve since the 1880s, but whatever you want to include must be well sourced as this is controversial.

• Yes Agreed. I propose inserting the following text.

• "The Tlingits regard Glacier Bay as their sacred homeland. The National Park Service takes the view that “Glacier Bay National Park is the spiritual homeland of the Huna Tlingit, and Glacier Bay National Preserve is the homeland of the Ghunaaxhoo Kwaan unit of the Yakutat Tlingit Tribe." The tribes' oral history supportsthat they were pushed out and migrated south when the glacier advanced. They moved back to the area when the Glacier retreated in the 1880s. There are 60 odd proto-historic or historic sites in the Glacier Bay, which are identified with Tlingit Indians or Euroamericans. They are an integral part of Northwest Coast people inferred to be belonging to Haida, Tlingit or Eyak clans. Their settlements existed even in the 1880s in Dry Bay, Excursion Inlet, Point Couverden and the Port Frederick area (now known as Hoonah) and Dundas Bay. A Tlingit cemetery of the period has also been located in the park area. Seasonal hunting, gathering and fishing was their way of life, woven around a central village, with shifting fishing and hunting camps. The food source of the natives was the rich Salmon fish resources of the area. A complex society evolved with rich artistic traditions. Tlingits claimed their fishing-dependent lifestyle was helped during the National Monument years, which kept out commercial fishing. After the area became a National Park, their fishing and hunting activities were curtailed except for certain religious exemptions. However, the National Park administration is closely interacting with the Tlingits to foster their cultural heritage. They are allowed access to the park to “harvest berries, a variety of seafoods, and traditional use items such as spruce roots and mountain goat hair (for weaving traditional blankets).” In addition the park is planning to establish a Tlingit longhouse near its main office,” where Tlingit culture would be fully highlighted and also facilitate holding of cultural events. ()"

• Please see my edits to the above paragraph.

Flora and fauna

• reword "within the Bay proper, further break up into three major marine ecosystems are marked namely, "
• Done

Layout plan of the glaciers

• change section heading to Landmarks (in has more than glaciers, section includes mountain ranges and peaks)

Yes, done

• 'Visitor Centre" since this is an article about the United States, please use US spellings.

• Yes, done

• reword "Coming out of the Muir inlet and entering and cruising along the main Bay" Could you describe this in terms of north? (Response, please?)
• What criteria are you using to decide to include Glaciers by name in this section?

I started towards the north, covered the glacier's first and then the terrestrial region. If you have specific suggestion, then I will incorporate it.

• My point is that there are a large number (over 50) of "separate" named glaciers, but you only mention some. What criteria did you use to decide what to include and to exclude? You include all tidewater glaciers and some terrestrial glaciers. Did you include only those visible from sea level? Did you include only the largest? Please tell the reader what you are trying to do.

Muir glacier

• Since this is a proper name, use a capital G in the heading.

• Done

• "The Muir Glacier, named after John Muir, the naturalist, who identified it in 1889, was then a famous tidewater glacier,,," split into two sentences. "The Muir Glacier was named after John Muir, the naturalist, who identified it in 1889. The Muir Glacier was a tidewater glacier.."

Done

• " two large deltas got formed " - use active voice "Glacial till left behind two large deltas"

• Done

Lamplugh glacier

• Capitalize the G in the heading.

• Done

• change "Fairweather Range has width " to "Fairweather Range. The glacier has width " - current sentence is ungrammatical.

• Done

• Reword and break into three sentences: " This phenomenon is attributed to the deposition of fluvial sediment in the embayment, which forms a delta, as observed during low tide and also results in water turning from brown to tan milky." Please make clear whether the water under the glacier or the water in the bay is turning from brown to tan milky. Avoid unnecessary jargon.

• Done

Johns Hopkins inlet and glacier

• Since multiple glaciers flow into the Johns Hopkins Inlet, you might want to have two separate sections. For example, the Gilman Glacier and Hoonhan Glacier.

• Done. However I could find much text for Hoonhan Glacier.

• Add that Johns Hopkins Inlet is closed to boats in May and June in order to protect unweaned harbor seal pups. [3]

• Added

Mt. Fairweather

• "The Mt. Fairweather ... is located 20 kilometers (12 mi) east of the Pacific Ocean in the Glacier Bay." Since Glacier Bay is a body of water at sea level, this can't be true. Do you mean the Glacier Bay area or region?

• I mean the region. I have made changes now.

Summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

Many serious problems. I am putting on hold so that you can address the issues noted.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

Dead link: no dead links

1. C. No original research:

2. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   What role if any does Glacier Bay play in the climate change debate?

I would rather not elaborate on this issue since it is very controversial (I am in the opposite camp). I have deleted the sentence in the article

1. Tlingits - expelled by advance of Glacier Bay, return upon glacier retreat, and then affected by Park status

I have now proposed a revised text above

1. B. Focused:

2. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

3. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

4. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

5. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• Thank you for the review comments and giving me time to comply with all issues. I will address all issues in the next few days. -- N.V.V. Char ^Talk . 05:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• I have addressed all review observations made by you. I hope they meet your acceptance. Let me know if you any more chnages or modifications to suggest. Thanks for an excellent review.-- N.V.V. Char ^Talk . 08:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Please see the above comment. Of course, you are the editor, and I am only making suggestions.

• All changes inserted with due incorporation of review comments

• If you move the article to Glacier Bay Basin then consider adding a hat note to it in the article Grand Pacific Glacier.

• I have done it. But I am not sure if it is done correctly

• In the phrase "National Park & Preserve" - change & to "and"

• Done

• Insert ) after "British dominion"

• I could not locate it.

• remove bold from "Harriman Alaska Expedition" and wikilink it.

• Done

• The Herriman expedition was instrumental in documenting the extent of the glacier's retreat as of 1899.

• Added

• The identification of John Muir as a ", the naturalist, conservationist and scientist, " should be moved up to the first time he is mentioned in the article. If John Muir came to Glacier Bay prior to the Harriman expedition, the order of the paragraphs should be reversed to reflect the actual chronological order.

• Hopefully done, as desired

• Change "The Glacier Bay was closed " to "The Glacier Bay was closed to ships"

• changed

Please make all discussed changes and then I will give it one last read. I hope we can finish this process rapidly. Thank you for all of your hard work. Racepacket (talk) 10:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the quick further review and valuable suggestions for making changes. I hope I have done them correctly. If there is something missing, please tell me.-- N.V.V. Char ^Talk . 16:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• "However, Gustavus as such is approachable only by air and sea. Juneau, the capital of Alaska, is about 90 miles (140 km)) from the center of Glacier Bay and about 600 miles (970 km)) to the southeast of Anchorage." is unclear. Is 600 miles the distance from Glacier Bay to Anchorage or Juneau to Anchorage? Do you mean to say "The center of Glacier Bay is about 90 miles (140 km) from Juneau, the capital of Alaska, and 600 miles (970 km) from Anchorage."

• Corrected and additional reference fixed for approximate distance between Anchorage and Juneau.

• Need cite for the NPS quote, “Glacier Bay National Park is the spiritual homeland of the Huna Tlingit, and Glacier Bay National Preserve is the homeland of the Ghunaaxhoo Kwaan unit of the Yakutat Tlingit Tribe."

• Yes, done. (I am not good at fixing references, sorry, if I have repeated the corrections of references in the article)

• In the Geography section: "The advancing and retreating characteristics of the glaciers in the Glacier Bay are explained in simple terms as a steady state of snow getting converted into ice on the hills. Ice, as a good lens of water on the base of bedrock, slides by gravity downwards. The good moraine of rock and rubble insulates it from water erosion. As a result, during freezing temperatures that exists all the year, the glacier advances. " - what does the word "good" mean?

• I condensed it from the reference 7, which states: “There is no simple answer. If a glacier has a steady source of snow turning to ice in the mountains, a good lens of water on which to slide along the bedrock, enough gravity and momentum in downhill movement, a good moraine of rock and rubble at the front to insulate it from water erosion and cold enough temperatures year-around, a glacier will advance. If it loses enough of these, it will retreat.” However, I have delted the word "good in the text.

• Thanks for the further review observations which were relevant. -- N.V.V. Char ^Talk . 07:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

• Congratulations. Racepacket (talk) 11:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

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Flora and fauna

The flora and fauna section requires cleanup, as many of the links point to generic species groups, such as crow and cormorant. I'm not sure which species are present here as I don't know the area very well. AustinRedd007 (talk) 10:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

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